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Dan G's avatar

I think the argument is somewhat self-defeating. Deeper renewable penetration can only work if that turtle can be spread out over the whole day's demand, which means enough storage to make time of generation more or less irrelevant. But then does it actually matter that your nuclear generates all day long if it can charge the same batteries (and utilise excess energy in exactly the same way you are saying it'd be with solar), while also reducing the amount of storage needed to get you through the night (or winter)?

One counterargument is that it'd be wasteful vs cheap solar on a $/kwh basis. However, this is not a good comparison, because you'd be comparing instantaneous costs of energy sold in a market with relatively low penetration, not aggregate costs of energy for the society. As an extreme example, if you switch off all fossils tomorrow, electricity price will be nearly infinite in the night while still being low during the day, making solar "cheap" in the instant sense but extremely expensive overall. Studies quantifying this "true" cost (that would include necessary transmission and storage, including land acquisition and NIMBY lawsuits for transmission etc) are probably out there, but I haven't seen any yet. By using instant energy prices instead you're effectively comparing (a lot of) fossils+renewables vs standalone nuclear, which does not support the argument that renewables leave no place for baseload. Renewables + fossils might not, but it's not the same, is it?

It's also important to note that you're being very US-centric here. In most of Europe, solar is barely (or inversely) correlated with demand for most of the year because of the need for heating. However, this is very seasonal, and baseload (nuclear or otherwise) is well positioned to respond to those week/month-scale changes.

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jaberwock's avatar

You are showing charts from a time close to the summer solstice when solar is at its peak, but demand from AC is still relatively low, and it is also a Sunday, the lowest demand day of the week. Your duck curve chart is also chosen from the lowest net demand of the year.

Those charts will look different in January, especially in Europe where demand peaks in winter when there is hardly any solar.

With solar and wind, back-up will always be needed, curtailment will always happen and massive overbuild is needed to correct seasonal variations. Efficient CCGT plants will not be the back-up, they take too long to ramp up and constant on/off operation creates high maintenance and shortens the life. The trend will be towards inefficient single cycle turbines or reciprocating engines. Natural gas will be difficult because it is just in time delivery, and who wants to own and maintain a whole gas supply train that is only needed intermittently.

Hydrogen is very inefficient (round trip efficiency of 35%) and it is very expensive to store, except in salt caverns that don't exist everywhere. The other storage methods, batteries, pumped hydro, compressed air etc are only good for intra-day variations in supply and demand, they do not scale to provide for seasonal or multi-year variations.

The issue with batteries is partly cost. California for example, would need about 500 GWh to provide power through the night with a solar powered grid (wind doesn't help because it may not be blowing). At today's prices that is $150 billion, replaced every 15 years. But that only takes care of the intra-day variations, on cloudy days there would not be enough juice to charge the batteries unless the solar were overbuilt by a factor of two. A nuclear baseload cuts the battery requirements significantly.

It is true that nuclear does not fit well with renewables, but the solution is to eliminate the renewables not the nuclear.

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